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Tardigrade's avatar

The feedback loop, a.k.a. too much recursion. I have a great graphic to illustrate this; maybe I can manage to post it in Notes...yep! https://substack.com/profile/4958635-tardigrade/note/c-17550793

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VJ's avatar

I agree with this and your own theorizing wholeheartedly. In fact I think people take for granted just how much rnon-AI, human originated data and feedback is needed to make AI / ML function well in the first place. For example, very few outside of the AI / ML space know that if you are building something from scratch, without a pre-trained model, or to train on a new category of data, you actually need humans to label that data. As such, almost no ones this fact: https://time.com/6247678/openai-chatgpt-kenya-workers/

""Exclusive: OpenAI Used Kenyan Workers on Less Than $2 Per Hour to Make ChatGPT Less Toxic"

"The premise was simple: feed an AI with labeled examples of violence, hate speech, and sexual abuse, and that tool could learn to detect those forms of toxicity in the wild ...

To get those labels, OpenAI sent tens of thousands of snippets of text to an outsourcing firm in Kenya, beginning in November 2021. Much of that text appeared to have been pulled from the darkest recesses of the internet ...

The data labelers employed by Sama on behalf of OpenAI were paid a take-home wage of between around $1.32 and $2 per hour depending on seniority and performance ..."

(the company, Sama, hired 50,000 workers)

So aside from the raw human supplied data needed, it's not just the manual labor or labeling or categorization work that's needed, it's also the data weights (weighing the importance of the billions of parameters) assigned to a model needed to work and that influences output. The exact same AI / ML model with any of those being different will result in different output. And there's no programmatic model to "know" any of those in the first place (i.e. no epistemological algorithm). Essentially since the model is considered the "core" of whatever AI tech one is referring to, an analogy would be if a person completely--and genuinely-- changes personality depending on the clothes he wears, giving different responses to the same question depending on that clothing, all unbeknownst to that very person.

There's a reason why Human In The Loop modeling exists, humans need to judge the data and output and provide feedback to prevent model breakdown. See: https://research.aimultiple.com/human-in-the-loop/

I made the same comments about model breakdown elsewhere in a tech community using the same image-generation example over a month ago. I had posited that a "degeneration" would occur of you starting training AI / ML on AI output in a closed feedback loop:

What I mean by degeneration is for example, that initially AI models would know what a real cat looks like. But then limit its dataset to ONLY generative AI output which would start generating fictitious cats. Again, given this is closed system, then only those would be used to recognize what a cat is, and as the amount of fictiously generated cat images increases without humans in the loop in this closed system, all the models bouncing training input and generative output data back between each other, they would no longer be able to recognize nor generate a real cat.

Here's one example of model breakdown without proper categorization and sample data when using AI image generators to do style transfers i.e. transform a real world photo into some art style such as oil painting or in this case, anime/manga style

https://www.reddit.com/r/lostpause/comments/zbju2i/i_thought_the_new_ai_painting_art_changes_people/

It really highlights how model programming and training data influences outcomes (both of which, again, are human created), including limitations that may not have been considered.

The limbless man above is Nick Vujicic and the broken result from prompts to transform a pic to artform--a process involving Attribute Transfer-- is almost guaranteed to be because the closest match in its model training data was the blue suitcase. This is even though all of the attributes broken down likely have very low weights that was still the only suitable match. If its training data had included handicapped anime characters, especially limbless anime characters, then the inference would have picked up on those instead.

Human artists wouldn't make this mistake, and would be able to draw Nick Vujicic in anime/manga style, even WITHOUT ever having seen limbless anime character before.

Now imagine if there was no corrective feedback, no human intervention and the same AI model continues to train on AI output then that just further reinforces the case where handicapped and/or people with missing gets incorrectly seen as inanimate objects instead of humans.

This is exactly the same problem Tesla had a many years ago when researchers found stupid-simple ways to fool its self driving. One example was taking the 35 mph speed limit sign, and applying black tape down the left side of the "3" so that to human eyes it looks like a "B" e.. "B5". So after semantic segmentation -- a process that breaks down parts of the image/video into meaningful categories i.e. this is a human, this the road, this is a sign, after it recognizes the sign it, it recognizes it as a speed limit sign and so does OCR but limited to just numbers because after all, that's what speed limit signs are supposed to composed of just numbers.

So the closest match of the hacked sign was not "hey that 3 has obviously been tampered with to look like a B" , but rather a "8" to result in speeding the car up to 85 mph in the 35 mph zone. If you know how the modeling works, the neural network is fixed so that certain inputs travel along a certain path, through its layers, and there is simply no handling or recognition of outliers. In its image recognition neural network, once at the speed sign, at those layers, it's trained only to recognize numbers--there's no other choice, there's no path -- at that time at least -- that said, hey something's not right. Another similar trick to fool the self-driving AI was using lasers and holographic projection.

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